Topic Author: Russ Walling
With the latest daisy scare rearing its ugly head again, I did a couple of tests that you might find interesting. I guess the only real questions I have now are:
1. Should we even be making daisy chains with just a small loop at the end?
2. Should we be only making daisy chains that a clove-able end loop?
3. Should we only make daisy chains with the yet to be named "insert".
4. Please advise....

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 01:35pm PST
Author: Dingus Milktoast
Nice idea on the insert Fish.
Why can't you just use runner-strength bartacks for every pocket on the thing? Cost? Weight? Too stiff? Dumb idea? Please advise.
DMT

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 01:36pm PST
Author: zardoz
Say Russ, I'm not really up to speed on this issue/thang. Why is clipping the end loop like the first photo the Bad Business? I thought the thing to avoid was accidentally clipping only one of the bar tacks between loops, which puts you out of the system when it blows. Otherwise with all of the pockets blown you should still have one big loop with a six someodd bar tack keeping it together.
Like I said, pardon my ignorance. I always have enjoyed your tech weenie stuff. And don't forget those beers I bought you years ago on Paypal. Ha! The photo illustrations rock, btw.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 01:44pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
Check this thread for more info and the great BD video of "Daisy Death"™™™™™
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=182550&f=35&b=0
DMT: ladder style daisy chains used to be around. Not sure where they went. Usually boils down to time and money. Lot's O labor in a ladder style daisy. I'll look into it.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 01:52pm PST
Author: zardoz
This is the direct link to a nice video showing the shiznits:
http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 01:56pm PST
Author: dirtineye
Just clove hitch the end and be done with it already.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 02:00pm PST
Author: Lambone
or use two biners to adjust length, or only clip into one loop. right?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 02:08pm PST
Author: bringmedeath
Umm... we should... ummm... do nothing and see how many of us die.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 02:30pm PST
Author: Lambone
I recall seeing that Metolious Adjustables are only rated to 300lbs. Bodyweight for aid, not meant for anchoring.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 02:55pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
C'mon Fet... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us. Daisy chains, when used properly, have tons of uses, including in and around the anchor. If you know what they can and can't do, your chances of survival are higher, but I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure. YMMV.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 03:57pm PST
Author: crotch
Nice idea Russ.
If you take a short piece of webbing, pass it through the last loop of a standard daisy and bartack it closed into a loop so that it floats free like a link of chain, you've got a full strength loop at the end that won't get loaded funny or pop open.
Makes for an easy way to retrofit existing daisies.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 04:30pm PST
Author: kimgraves
Russ,
Why not a PAS design but with smaller "pockets?"
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm
Kim

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 04:37pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
Kim:
Don't like they way they handle and tangle. The standard long ass daisy is my fave. They are sleek, lightweight, and have plenty of adjustments that stay open when the daisy is weighted. The POS will have its loops close when under a load.
After all you guys have now got me paranoid after 25+ years, I'm going to use the FISH Super Daisy ™™™™.... oh wait... that's what I have been using ;)
Seriously.... I'll probably go to a clove hitch in the end, tack in the insert, or make one of them directional guys. I'll make Susan use the ultra bomber Directional Guy. I want to at least be *able* to see the "edge" from my new found world of puss-dom™™™™

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 05:20pm PST
Author: Thom
Aren't we over-reacting just a tad? Yes, the deviously deceptive and daring "Daisy Clip-O-Death" could get you an "E-ticket" for your last ride (right up there with the "Sliding X of Death" and the "American Triangle of Death"). But, as Russ pointed out,
"... don't go all "Chicken Little" on us."
and
"... I hardly see stiffs stacked at the base of routes like cord wood from daisy failure."
Couldn't we just use two 'biners and call it a day?
We're discussing a way to prevent improper use of equipment from killing us, rather than discussing the proper use of said equipment. Unless every manufacturer of daisies changed their design, a new "specialized" daisy developed by one manufacturer still doesn't stop people from using other daisies incorrectly. This doesn't seem the best way to go IMO, especially since the solution is so simple.
The flaw is not in the design, but in the use.
Cheers,
Thom

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 05:42pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
I thought the whole idea was to save people from themselves? Impossible task I know... I can imagine a fool with a daisy chain made from welded quick links somehow getting loose of the system and heading off to the great beyond.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 05:52pm PST
Author: mark miller
Thanks for all the work Russ on the daisy chain, BUTT.... I've been using the daisy chain gig for over 14 years (I used to do alot of climing with a 3 person team and switching ropes, arguing over who got the next pitch was easier). But the daisy chain is for convenience people, to easily adjust a semi hanging stance at belays and feeding T/R's. Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope, remember that colorful thing you've been trusting your life with up until the Belay?. Tie a Freakin backup knot on your lead line, clip your daisy correctly to allow a semi comfortable stance and let Darwin take it's course on the rest of the idiot nation that has to be protected from themselves.
Leave the Fish alone to test shoes and perfect the perfect econo ledge.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 05:59pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
Mark writes: ** Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope**
Mark ya dolt!!! That is just the point. For that split second where you are into the anchor with just your daisy, and you get light headed and untie from the rope for an unknown reason, then you decide to clip the haul line from your ass into the bottom of your belay loop along with the daisy chain, and then your partner uses his belay knife to free the 400lb haul bag from the lower anchor prematurely, and it goes all the way to the end of the 600ft static line... THAT IS WHY WE NEED A BOMBER DAISY SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please feel free to post again when you have something relevant to the subject at hand.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 06:13pm PST
Author: mark miller
Well thanks for clarifying that for me Russ, after 6 mistakes I can rest easier knowing my Fish ultra Darwin proof daisy chain will protect me from myself. Does it come in red?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 06:30pm PST
Author: Forest
Unless you're worried about the whole loop breaking (i.e. the full-strength sling bar tacking that makes it one big loop) why is a clove hitch any better than jsut using a girth hitch? This takes up quite a bit less of the sling...

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 27, 2006, 06:37pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
A girth hitch would be fine, but,..... if your girth hitch is not cinched up real tight it has the potential to walk up the biner and then when you load it, it unclips itself. Just did it myself as a test.
addendum: I was goofing around with this some more and if the girth is not real tight, you can wiggle the biner around enough to get the biner to come out of the hitch and fall to the ground. Remote chances at best, but it is repeatable in the lab.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Apr 28, 2006, 04:29am PST
Author: 'Pass the Pitons' Pete
I still can't believe I didn't understand this! Thanks for posting the video link and the other stuff. Geeeeeezzzz.......

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 08:20am PST
Author: the Fet
Russ, if you are still working on this fool-proof daisy for anchoring, I'd recommend reading this thread.
Daisy chain question.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/111061
Here is a quote from Largo, in turn quoted from an earlier RC thread:
Largo wrote: pg 5 of sliding x thread
Quote:
"That's why a person should never tie into the anchor with a tech cord/web daisy. A daisy made out of anything but nylon is a serious liability because it can cause shock loading (as seen in the recent Rock and Ice expose). You ALWAYS tie into the anchor master point with the climbing rope. NO exceptions."
Jim at Sterling has been drop testing daisies, etc. Defineatly stay away from spectra/dyneema. Here are some select quotes from sterlingjim regarding some very high force tests:
"Spectra daisies or slings should never be your sole connection to the anchor and probably should not be your primary. It's not the force of your partner falling in any scenario that's the problem. The problem is you falling directly on the anchor while attached with a very static 'umbilical'. How could this happen if you're hanging on the sling? Suppose you step up for some reason to adjust something or fiddle stuff around then fall backwards and BAM! You may break the sling, you may break your back, you may crush your kidneys. A whole bunch of unpleasant things may happen. Of course it's entirely dependent on how long the fall is but static materials care very little about fall factors they only care about force and how quickly it is applied.
Here is a sample of the tests:
11/16" nylon, impact force 18.4kN, held
1" nylon, impact force 21.11kN, held
1/2" Spectra, impact force, 20.02kN, failed
5/8" Spectra, impact force, 19.2kN, failed
10mm Dyneema, impact force, 18.9kN, failed
The impacts listed were the highest recorded out of five drops on each. All nylon slings held. All Spectra and Dyneema slings failed. All slings had a minimum rating of 22kN. A fresh sling was used for every single drop. It should be noted that even the nylon slings recorded very high impacts, high enough to threaten the anchor and certainly high enough to cause serious personal injury."
He also tested the Metolious PAS:
"OK, standard disclaimer: this is a very severe test and should not be considered conclusive in any way.
the results:
They died quick and painless.
Sample #1) 21.5 kN at 0.014 sec. broke
Sample #2) 21.7 kN at 0.018 sec. broke
FF just under 2, probably about 1.9. Mass 80kg. Drop distance 48"+/- 2"
So, it looks like good old nylon slings maybe the best thing we currently have to anchor with, if you can't use the rope. With a nylon daisy you are looking at possibly ripping out body weight pockets and ending up with a compromised sling due to all the ripped out bar tacks.
-The sky IS falling, or is that just cord wood, or perhaps parts of alien spaceships.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 09:05am PST
Author: rockermike
Personally I like cald's design (above) with reinforcment tucked inside the next to last pocket. simple, clean, probably cheap to manufacture. Having the extra piece tacked on the end like Russ's makes me nervous.
But I have a feeling that now that this is a public issue and the risks are well known any manufacturer who doesn't change their design is going to get their butt sued if a dad with 5 kids blows out of his daisy and decks. Current designs really are defective to my mind.
Of course there is always a work-around, clove hitch or two biners but hey, sh#t happens and not everyone reads supertopo. Why do we wear seat belts.
Personally I rarely belay off of only a daisy but I've probably done it, and probably shortened up by clipping a pocket. I also use daisys for jugging and again shorten up by clipping pocket. Glad I never had the opportunity to shock-load the system.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 10:37am PST
Author: katiebird
I vote for no more dasies with small loop ends- you can't hitch them and there are many unawares that will only use one biner to shorten and not twist the daisy.
Also, maybe in the tags for purchae there should be instructions on the best ways to use and the worst ways to misuse.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 11:37am PST
Author: jdclimber
Years ago I tied a simple Overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy to prevent the death scenerio, this made the last pocket smaller. This was a Spectera Daisy, which has it's own problems, and the knot ended up being fairly small but has served me well.
Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?
First daisy I ever owned was a big ol sling of 1" tubular with a heap of overhand (doubled) knots in the sling creating pockets. Far from Sexy, but safe just the same.
Any tests with that config Russ?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 11:55am PST
Author: Russ Walling
Jd writes: "Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?"
Too easy.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 12:53pm PST
Author: rwedgee
Having dealt with this problem before, I switched to the Mountain Tools anchor chains. They're stitched to hold 1100lb in the pockets and 4950 end to end. I tested a pocket on one I retired And it popped at over 1400lb. . Good enough for me. http://mountaintools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_anchorchain.htm

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 01:09pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
wedgee: you have just switched to the exact thing we have been talking about. That ain't gonna save you and is just a regular daisy chain.
Here is a small test from a previous thread.


Similar numbers and construction. The headless chickens are saying this will get you killed. I suggest reading all the threads once more.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 05:34pm PST
Author: rwedgee
Russ, I use M.T.'s because of the stronger pocket strength. Others I've used blow @ >250lb, which is barely a bounce test. I clip end to end and shorten with a key lock biner as opposed to a fifi.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 05:38pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
blow at 250 OR rated to 250?
If you have pockets blowing out at 250 lbs you should out the maker RIGHT NOW as those WILL get you killed.
Fattrad: Keep 'em. This is all just hysteria. In 96.3% of applications shoelace would probably work. Remember, when you number is up it's up... ain't no dasiy gonna save ya when it is your time to go.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 05:57pm PST
Author: JAK
Yeah, most of the time, you're never going to be able to replicate these falls that tests show break runners. It's highly unlikely to take a factor-two fall directly onto a completely static anchor.
That said, I would prefer a dynamic link between myself and an anchor, as my *body* would probably break before the runner did. I'm wondering why no one has looked into a kernmantle constructed anchor system modeled after rope and dynamic to significantly lessen impact forces.
Probably too expensive to R&D.
I stick with the contention that your best safety practice is not to fall off the rock.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 06:22pm PST
Author: Lovegasoline
Among other tie-ins, I've been a proud user of the Daisy-of-Death™ system.
Has anybody actually taken the full plunge using this time tested method?
Seems folks have been sporting the Daisy-of-Death™ for quite some time: why all of a sudden do we have this insistence on safety and bombproofness in our anchors?
The Death-Loop scenario has held sway over climbers for decades; where did this current trend towards applying logic and reasoning to daisy chain construction originate? It's a true buzzkill for those of us that like death-clipping our daisy loops.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
May 11, 2006, 06:41pm PST
Author: JAK
Uh, I'm always interested in improving the chances of me not dying...

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Jun 8, 2006, 01:59pm PST
Author: Mackavus
Dudes,
Am I understanding that throwing an overhand in the last loop will prevent the magic trick? And although this works we are trying to come up with a better solution? This is how I have my daisy rigged as it made sense to me, but I had to flip the damn thing around because it is a BD and the end loop was too small for this. So, the end loop is really the harness end and vice versa.
Also, and yell at me if this has been said, rather than adding a loop as the above suggestions stated with dual bar tacks and what not; couldn't you just make the last bartack full strength? That way you would have one bomb-ass pocket at the end of the chain, and if the others blow your still set. Right? I guess what I am saying is that I see how the "insert" is cool, but if you are going to start making them like that, why not just bartack the last tack to the max?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Jun 8, 2006, 02:13pm PST
Author: dirtineye
Clove, not overhand.
Russ, yeah, make em clove size loop only, it's gotta be the simplest way, eh?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Jun 8, 2006, 04:00pm PST
Author: Burns
Mack is right, we're overthinking this.
Several pretty simple solutions (that don't involve buying new gear) have been presented:
An overhand in the last loop
A clove hitch in the last loop
Shortening your daisy with a second biner, leaving the anchor end biner through only the end loop at all times.
Shortening your daisy with a spare biner from the harness end, like you do with your fifi.
There's probably a few more, I prefer the fourth option as I found the clove hitch to be a pain the the crapper when I wanted to flip the biner, hadn't tried the overhand yet, but I don't think my loops are big enough. Second biner on the end of the line seems like a pain. Also, I have a misty nylon daisy that has a pretty small end loop, so when I tried out the clove hitch option, I just flipped the whole rig around so the girth-hitch loop became the end loop since it was bigger. Still don't like the clove option though.
Of course, none of those are idiotproof like a special for-idiots daisy would be...
Edit: If you did produce a daisy with the extra bar tacking, etc, you could call it the FID (For Idiots Daisy), kinda like the metolius PAS.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Oct 31, 2006, 07:56pm PST
Author: philo
OK so here is my 2 cents worth. Why do any of those options (other than full strength bar tacking all pockets)? I have never liked or been comfortable with girth hitching or clove hitching or over hand knotting one material to another particularily when they are of differing dimensions. IMHO the easiest answer is to just attach your daisy to your harness with a locking carabiner. No knots no fuss full strength.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Oct 31, 2006, 08:01pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
philo.... did you read this stuff? It has nothing to do with how you attach it to your harness. It is all about the business end, not the harness end.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Nov 1, 2006, 11:20am PST
Author: philo
Russ, I did read it all and I thought most were in agreement that a second biner was the easiest and safest way to adjust the business end of the daisy. That still leaves all the long term wear and tear of the girth hitched harness endof the daisy. That is what I was refering to. Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure?

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Nov 1, 2006, 12:16pm PST
Author: Russ Walling
Philo writes:
"Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure? "

Most likely is far and away an improper clip in the middle of the chain. I've read your posts a few times now and I'm just not getting what you are saying. If you watch the BD video, that is the scenario we are trying to get around. Your attachment point to the harness, be it girth hitching, locking biner or 8 wraps of duct tape has nothing to do with the failure scenario in the BD video.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Nov 1, 2006, 01:01pm PST
Author: ADK
The issue is when you double clip two pockets. Lets say you have a locking biner attached to the end loop in your daisy and you decide you want to be a little closer to the anchor. So you clip another loop of the daisy into the locking biner to hoist yourself a little closer. If the stiching blows out between the pockets, and you havent put a twist in the chain before clipping the second loop, youre going for a long ride.
When Im free climbing, I tie in with the rope. When Im aid climbing I tie in with the rope and adjust height with the daisy in the dangerous method but I have a backup always.

Re: Daisy Death revisited
Nov 1, 2006, 05:14pm PST
Author: philo
Russ I know what you are saying and I agree. I am only saying that friction of nylon on nylon is a very real risk probably more so than a pocket blowing out from shock loading an improperly adjusted daisy. BUT, the constant wear and tear at the cinched tie-in is a potential and usually un-noticed failure point. You don't lower someone by running the rope only through a piece of webbing. That should be obvious. But what probably isn't so clear is how much damage occurs little by little to regularly loaded girthed or cinched webbing material. My original post was just to say that by eliminating that weakness
you inherently improve the safety of the system. Manufactures clearly state that girth hitching or clove hitching webbing redices the inherent strength by 50%. Why compromise the system before it even gets put to the test? I hope this clarifys my earlier (somewhat off topic post).
For the record I use a daisy as a personal safety teather only never for critical uses like anchoring.
Also for the record your wall gear has always been the greatest! Thanx.